S1 E8 - Why do Marketing Leaders get Leadership Wrong?

Why do so many leaders get Leadership wrong? Leadership can be a dealbreaker in most organizations. Many people get it wrong, or at least some of them do, and many times they don’t even realize it. However, given how quickly the marketing landscape is evolving, collaboration between teams and practicing self-awareness to understand what’s not working out is necessary. Do you wish to know what the different types of leaders are and what good leadership really is? Tune in to Episode 8 of The B2B POD and indulge in an engaging discussion between our host Radwa Hassan and guest Robert Jordan, where they elaborate on the different types of leaders and how they take on a crisis in their own individual ways.

In this Episode -  
We introduce you to our gracious host Radwa Hassan and our guest Robert Jordan.
Give you a general overview of the challenges leaders face and how to overcome them.
Our guest shares his insights on Leadership styles in his book Right Leader Right Time. Discover your leadership style for a winning career and company.
In closing, we'd like to say thank you for tuning in to The B2B POD this week. We hope to see you for Episode 9.

Episode highlights -
[00:01]   Radwa introduces the guest Robert Jordan
[00:14]   Radwa introduces the topic for the episode
[01:11]   Radwa Hassan introduces the guest Robert Jordan
[02:43]   Radwa cites a statistic from Gallup organization   
[03:13]   Radwa asks what are the different types of leaders and what is good leadership.
[05:48]  Robert explains the traits of Remarkable leaders
[07:42]   Robert explains the 4 leadership styles called FABS
[11:16]  Robert explains the Builder leadership type with an example
[17:22]   Robert explains his perceptions written in his book Right Leader Right Time.
[17:52]   Robert explains his perceptions as a Fixer leader
[19:01]   Robert explains his views as an Artist leader with an example
[21:27]   Radwa asks Robert which leadership style is most prevalent in the market
[24:52]  Radwa talks about how important it is to lead by example to be a leader
[26:01]   Radwa asks Robert for his Key takeaways for the listeners in their Leadership    journey           
[26:48]   Robert states the harsh reality of leaders
[28:05]   Robert gives an example of Cheryl Sandberg who left Google and went to Facebook  and was a great example of a leader
[29:44] Radwa talks about Cheryl Sandberg having the 4 leadership styles
[31:09] Robert shares a common trait among FABS leaders
[32:31] Robert shares his psychologist’s views on leadership
[33:43] Radwa encourages the listeners to read Robert’s book Right Leader Right Time.
[34:25] The End

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Websites:  www.interimexecs.com & www.rightleader.com

Transcript

Episode 8 –  Post Production Transcript - Robert Jordan 

[00:01] Radwa Hassan: Hello everyone, and welcome to another great episode by The B2B POD and for this episode, I have to welcome my guest, Robert Jordan.

[00:14] Radwa Hassan:  So the title of the episode that we have is Why do Marketing Leaders get Leadership Wrong?

[00:36] Radwa Hassan: Hello everyone and welcome to a new episode of The B2B POD and for this episode we have a very interesting title which is Why do so Many Marketing Leaders Get Leadership Wrong? I believe it is not so many as much as some who don’t really get that mix of what makes great leadership or great leaders and for this episode I have the pleasure to welcome my guest Robert Jordan.  

[01:11] Radwa Hassan: Rober Jordan is the CEO of InterimExecs, which matches top executives with companies around the world. Based on research with thousands of leaders and companies, he and Olivia Wagner wrote "𝐑𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭 𝐋𝐞𝐚𝐝𝐞𝐫,𝐑𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭 𝐓𝐢𝐦𝐞: 𝐃𝐢𝐬𝐜𝐨𝐯𝐞𝐫 𝐘𝐨𝐮𝐫 𝐋𝐞𝐚𝐝𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐡𝐢𝐩 𝐒𝐭𝐲𝐥𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐚 𝐖𝐢𝐧𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐂𝐚𝐫𝐞𝐞𝐫 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐂𝐨𝐦𝐩𝐚𝐧𝐲" and have launched the 𝐅𝐀𝐁𝐒 𝐋𝐞𝐚𝐝𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐡𝐢𝐩 𝐀𝐬𝐬𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐭 a free assessment at RightLeader.com designed to help leaders and organizations perform better. Robert also authored 𝐇𝐨𝐰 𝐓𝐡𝐞𝐲 𝐃𝐢𝐝 𝐈𝐭: 𝐁𝐢𝐥𝐥𝐢𝐨𝐧 𝐃𝐨𝐥𝐥𝐚𝐫 𝐈𝐧𝐬𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭𝐬 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐇𝐞𝐚𝐫𝐭 𝐨𝐟 𝐀𝐦𝐞𝐫𝐢𝐜𝐚 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐡𝐞𝐥𝐩𝐞𝐝 𝐩𝐮𝐛𝐥𝐢𝐬𝐡 𝐒𝐭𝐚𝐫𝐭 𝐖𝐢𝐭𝐡 𝐍𝐨, 𝐉𝐢𝐦 𝐂𝐚𝐦𝐩’𝐬 𝐛𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐬𝐞𝐥𝐥𝐞𝐫 𝐨𝐧 𝐧𝐞𝐠𝐨𝐭𝐢𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧.

[01:59] Radwa Hassan: Hello Bob!

[02:01] Robert Jordan: Hi Radwa, I am fine. It is a pleasure to be with you.

[02:04] Radwa Hassan: Thank you, the pleasure is mine, and I am really looking forward to a great episode and a very interesting discussion. So the episode today talks about why so many leaders get it wrong. Leadership is a dealbreaker and in most organizations many people get it wrong, or at least some of them, and they don’t realize or recognize they did it wrong. The lead thinking that they are doing their best and it is really hard for them to have that level of self awareness to understand that they are really not doing it right.

[02:43] Radwa Hassan: So Gallup organization says that 90% of leaders are in the wrong role. So it's not just us saying it, but there is some pretty good research out there that supports that. There is also, unfortunately, a majority of leaders don't get leadership right and they continue doing that, and it impacts the organizations and their own careers.

[03:13] Radwa Hassan: We do believe that great leadership is scarce and here in our episode, we're going to hear from Bob, What are the different types of leaders and what is good leadership? So, Bob, thank you so much again, for being our guest for this episode. What's your view about this topic and how do you see it? 

[03:34] Robert Jordan: I think your title is absolutely correct, Radwa and you cited a great statistic. Gallup organization, 90% of leaders are in the wrong role, the way that this had come to us and why we wrote a book about it is because we've had so many years we run an organization called interim execs, and we're matchmakers, and around the world organizations show up and we match them with great leaders.

[04:06] Robert Jordan: While in the process of doing that, we've been approached by about 7,000 leaders from 50 countries, and we noticed that the vast majority of those people were experiencing careers as leaders that were okay; they were just kind of mediocre. They weren't anything that was so good that you would say. This is incredible and our confidence is so high that if you go into this organization that we are trying to help, and they have a problem or a crisis, or maybe even as something good going on, but it's just not within their existing team to solve the percentage of leaders who were truly incredible was very small, less than 5%.

[04:46] Robert Jordan: So we started getting into, why is that? Why is it that so many leaders are having this experience of leadership? That's just kind of mediocre. That's what led us to do the book right Leader, right time.

[04:58] Radwa Hassan: Wow. That's really interesting and I want to read the book, definitely because this is one of the topics that I find very interesting. I've seen it through different organizations and, from my experience, how leaders can make it or break it for an organization. How even if they have the best strategy and the best teams, if their leadership is really poor, they don't take this organization to where it should be.

[05:32] Radwa Hassan: So if I go more in detail about the different types of leaders that you have mentioned in the book. I know that there are four types, and I'm really interested in knowing more about the different types, if you can mention it to our listeners. 

[05:48] Robert Jordan: I would sure love to get into the four types and it may help first to give a little more color in terms of what we mean by leaders who are more showing, I guess the way I would phrase it. 

[06:01] Leaders who are not showing remarkable results. Remarkable leaders tend to have results that are measurable. So for example, if you were talking to someone and he runs a division of a major corporation, and he says, things are going really well, and you say, well, what do you mean by that?

[06:21] Robert Jordan: He says, well, I can take this division from a hundred million in revenue to 500 million in three years for that is the kind of thing that is remarkable. If you're talking to a leader and they went to an organization to save it as it was in trouble. It was losing tons of money, for example. And you say, well, what do you exactly mean by save it?

[06:45] Robert Jordan: And they say, well, there were 2000 jobs at risk and we saved 1500 of the jobs, or we turned it around. They were losing. 50 million dollars a year and within two years we got it back to 250 million in earnings. Those are examples that are quantifiable. Most leaders cannot point to that. For most leaders, it's something that's a more bureaucratic kind of response.

[07:10] Robert Jordan: So that was how we were measuring in terms of what the difference is between this small set of leaders who are excelling and the majority who are not. Among the small set who were excelling. We saw 4 distinct styles of leadership that were working. So we don't necessarily characterize and say, all leaders are one of these four, but for sure, we saw four distinct styles among the winners.

[07:42] Robert Jordan: And the four styles are fixer, artist, builder and strategist or fabs for short FABS. So the fixer leader as the name implies, this is the person who is an expert in turnaround. Now a lot of leaders have to handle some kind of crisis at some point. What differentiates the expert, who is a fixer is that once they have had the experience of running into the burning building and saving everyone metaphorically, that they will then seek to do that and again, and again, and it differentiates from other styles of leadership where a leader could necessarily take on a crisis, but it's not the thing that primarily drives them. Does that make sense? 

[08:34] Radwa Hassan:  Yeah, absolutely. 

[08:36] Robert Jordan: So fixer is the style that is drawn repeatedly to crisis. The Artist leader sees and views the world as a canvas.

[08:50] Robert Jordan: It's a blank canvas to be painted on or a piece of clay to be sculpted. So in the world, if I was to say the name, Elon Musk, I think a lot of people would say you got it. He's an artist leader. He is driven to create, even at the expense of many other leaders would say would be responsible behaviour by a leader.

[09:19] Robert Jordan:  He's continually in trouble with the S E C and he can't stop tweeting. Those are side issues to the fact that he is an incredible innovator. 

[09:28] Radwa Hassan: Of course. They're as per personality. Yes. There are personality flaws, or I mean, you cannot change the personality. I fully agree with you. There are different styles and how it impacts the organization and the people they lead, but externally and how they behave. It's also something different. So that doesn't change the fact that they have really strong skills and talents that can change the world in some situations like when someone really brings in this transformation and it's like a revolution. It's like the industrial revolution with all its different models or different versions. So we cannot deny the fact that these are innovators or someone is a fixer of when you said fixer, it just like always comes to my mind. Maybe it's a little bit of an old example, not pretty new and when IBM was at a bit of a downside in the nineties and Lou Gerstner, was brought into the company and he did this massive transformation and he wasn't someone from the IT industry and his leadership style is really what took the organization to spike back again and to lead into the new era. So I think a fixer is someone who has special talents who understands and really knows how to turn things around and the artist is exactly the same. He just sees something that others can’t see. 

[10:59] Robert Jordan: Yes and Lou Gerstner is a perfect example of a fixer. Another great historical example would be Lee Iacocca, he was brilliant at Ford, but he really shined when he went to Chrysler which was on the verge of bankruptcy and Lee Iacocca completely turned it around quickly.

[11:16] Robert Jordan: So the builder's style, everyone in business is a builder. I mean it's, we all love the, title. I'm a builder. I build businesses. We get that, but we mean it specifically, we mean specifically that builder is the kind of style that takes a product or service, a client, a division, whatever it is they're working on from a small state that is not market dominant to market dominant. What also distinguishes a builder is that when they have achieved scale or market domination, they tend to get bored and you'll see a builder leave and go somewhere else to do it all over again. This can be something that's global. It can also be something that's local. I was just in Boston for a fair amount of time.

[12:09] Robert Jordan: And there's a local bakery in Boston that is DOMINANT It's called TATE and from what I can tell, they have no aspirations to go to any other major American city.

[11:31] Robert Jordan: They seem to be just intent on being the best in the Boston area. That clearly is builder genius behind it. The fourth style is strategist. Strategist is the leader who leads at scale. This is the person who is adept with complex or very large organizations. Where it is completely beyond  personal span of control that Steven Covey would say and that requires a different kind of leadership that is not available to the first three styles. Not really. The first three styles are very hands on with smaller teams. That's fabs F A B S. 

[13:14] Radwa Hassan: So I just want to go into the strategist and with a strategist, do you see that they are a holistic 360 leader who can take, because I see the strategist that they are really at the top and they put a strategy, but some people are very good with strategy and that when it comes to taking people to execution, if they don't see the link, they fail with the execution, they can put very beautiful strategies and because they're strategists, sometimes they don't see how it scales down. So do you see that this applies or not? 

[13:58] Robert Jordan: That's a great question, Radwa when we say strategist we wrestled with this label. It could have been the pilot, the conductor that the captain, because we're talking about the orchestration of teams and organizations that are vast and complex. One of the leaders we interviewed Janine Davidson, Dr. Janine Davidson, she's the former assistant secretary for the department of defence in the United States and you're talking about an organization and she was specifically over the Navy. You're talking about an organization of close well specific to her of a million people and the way she described it was you're at such a level of systems of systems that the actual doing could be your undoing.

[14:47] Robert Jordan: And you had to think on such a level of what would have impact in that organization. So the need to be strategic, the need to think strategically, Yes. But in terms of the ability to execute as a strategist, I think your phrases initially were great, which is holistic, 360 there are other descriptors that we heard strategists using.

[15:15] Robert Jordan: You can also tell a strategist very differently from a fixer or an artist or a builder strategist, for example, there's always a lot of loyalty to the organization in both directions. There's always mentoring. There's always cross training. You're not ever going to hear a fixer or an artist or a builder use those descriptors. Yeah,What they do. That the wiring is just so radically different. 

[15:35] Radwa Hassan: Yeah. Certainly. I mean, each one of them looks at something. Looks at it differently. So a fixer could be, I mean, that's my point of view is like a fixer would come and look exactly at the problem and where they needed to do the work. But sometimes they just get distracted, but they don't see the other areas that maybe need fixing, but because it's not causing a problem, they don't work on it but I would say the strategist for example, is someone who would go by the Kaiser theory. As in, even if it's broken, we still can fix it or we can improve it.

[16:21] Radwa Hassan: So they look at the full picture. What I see sometimes with some strategists is like taking it end to end strategy to execution is where sometimes there is a gap and I also see this a lot in marketing. So you build a beautiful marketing strategy and then sometimes when it comes to executing on it or doing that hands on, they don't have it, and maybe it's different in sales because in sales it's a different thing. But with marketing, if you don't have the hands on, if you don't have the fixer builder, attitude and characteristics within your personality and your style, you just build a strategy, but you just don't know how to fix the problems.

[17:09] Radwa Hassan: You don't know how. Build things with the strategy and you could just lose this connection. Strategies don't work. So really very interesting, the different styles on how they, I think in some cases, compliment each other and work together. 

[17:22] Robert Jordan: Yes, you touched on something that we described in the book right leader, right time. We described what we think. Commonalities and characteristics for each one of the styles and fixer and builder based on our research feel very linear. It's very rare to hear that a fixer is turning around two organizations at the same time and if they are, that would be a warning sign to us, which is, we're not sure they're the best at doing this.

[17:52] Robert Jordan: Fixer tends to be relentless 24/7 linear focus. On one organization's issues to turn it around , the same could be said of builder, which is this relentless focus on market domination the contrast though, is that with artist and strategist styles I like your word holistic one of the things we said was it's kind of a multitasking role.

[18:18] Robert Jordan: For the strategist. There's a level of complexity and multiplicity of teams that there is no way that you can just keep one thing in your mind forever and that's it and it'll work. You have to be able to kind of signal jump and for artists it's even worse or better. I clearly have my wiring as artist leader, and I have to have, as I would say, a parallel focus, or maybe it's a parallel lack of focus.

[18:48] Robert Jordan: You have to be multiple projects going on for me to be able to complete any of them. As strange as that sounds, 

[18:57] Radwa Hassan: To be excited about the task, maybe it's just like to have them running at the same time. 

[19:01] Robert Jordan: Yes, and it crosses over the artist leadership style. There are  a lot of similarities with other kinds of arts, with painters and with musicians, we had a lot of fun with examples in which you take an incredible painter like Monet impressionist paintings and he was probably working on 20 or 30 paintings of haystacks at the same time. Wow. every time the light would change every five or 10 minutes, he'd be working on a different canvas. He had that degree of nuance and discipline in what he was doing, that it didn't all become one painting.

[19:43] Robert Jordan: And you could literally see how the sun was setting. If you've ever been in an art gallery and they have more than one haystack painting or a painting of Notre Dame yeah. You can see the light changing the way Monet painted it. Yeah Artist leaders are the same way we interviewed.

[20:03] Robert Jordan: And this includes a lot of chief marketing officers. Yeah , but we interviewed one artist leader and said to him, asked him do you need to work on one thing at a time or more than one? And he jumped on it. He said, I have to have multiple things. Now this is a guy running a marketing services firm with hundreds of employees.

[20:26] Robert Jordan: At the same point, he was running a major organization in Rwanda, which was their mission was to create an entire country's worth of entrepreneurs to get the population past genicide. He had committed that as a 10 year project at the same time, he was the chairman of the lyric opera. And he just, it was kind of never ending, but he needed that multiple input.

[20:52] Radwa Hassan: wow. 

[20:55] Robert Jordan: Well, I mean, different kind of wiring from, for example, 

[20:58] Radwa Hassan: Of course different type of wiring. I mean it's difficult. Of course it just inspires them and probably gets the best out of them and that's why the different styles work differently. So you see how they get motivated by different outcomes or rather way of working on the different projects and bigger teams or complex tasks.

[21:27] Radwa Hassan: And that brings me to ask you in the marketing field, where, or which styles did you see or dominating the most within the market? 

[21:42] Robert Jordan: Yeah, boy, that's a great question. And, this sparks for me. Well, first of all I would say that even for marketers, that a lot of people might think, oh, well, you're in marketing.

[21:55] Robert Jordan: You must have a dominant artist style. Yes. I'd say yes and no. I say yes and no, because they're clearly chief marketing officers and other folks in marketing who are driven by Creativity and innovation, but not necessarily. You and I were talking before we started recording, and we were talking about the questions we asked of all the leaders who were interviewed for the book.

[22:21] Robert Jordan:  And one of those questions was what happened on your worst day as a leader. Yeah and we didn't mean agglomeration or just some , pile together response. I mean like a lot of leaders would say, well these are the things that would happen on my best day or worst day we meant exactly. Can you recall a day? That was just, oh my God, everything is wrong and one of the chief marketing officers where we asked this question, he instantly said they ignored me and you and his client. He had a big client project and he said they ignored him and that was like death for him. 

[23:06] Robert Jordan: And that struck me, which is that answer for example, is very different among all the four styles. I'll give you an example, strategist we did a very big interview with Carol Burnik. Her family owned Alberto Culver, which is a global company, beauty products, hairspray, food products. And we asked Carol if Carol had taken over from her parents. She was the CEO. We said, what happened on your worst day? And she said, the plant blew up. I was like, what do you mean? She said one of our production facilities in Mexico, she said we didn't even own the facility, but because we were one of the major customers in the facility and hairspray is combustible. It can explode and one day there was an explosion. I'm not even sure it was their product. It might even have been someone else's product, but it exploded and I think it was four people who died. Oh and this hit her, clearly you could tell there's nothing in her career that has ever had any impact like the fact someone had died and so Alberto Culver kind of instantly got in gear to do things. They made pledges to the community they took care of the families, and the children of the people who had died, they paid all of their expenses and tuition till they became adults.

[24:39] Robert Jordan: I mean they really took care things to make amends. Yeah and you could tell from Carol's wiring that is the way that it would be, but this is how serious it is in leadership. 

[24:52] Radwa Hassan: Exactly, because it comes with, I mean, I don't want to relate it much to the army, but at leaders and this is really one of the areas that I see there is a bit of a resemblance because you lead a team and you need to have certain characteristics when you're leading the team. Because if you don't lead by example, then I think there is something wrong with the leadership style. You could have a style, the fixer builder, but the different characteristics that you prove every day and that you bring to your team is really what makes a difference as well is the accountability, the ownership, the integrity, all these things, the commitment to the people you work with.

[24:42] Radwa Hassan: And just the example that you've mentioned and how the organization. Prove to step up and just like take ownership of that awful event and try to make it right. Try to make it right. So, yeah, absolutely. 

[26:-01] Radwa Hassan:  So if I ask you , what would be the key takeaways that we want to leave our listeners with a few of them that really people can go and take and act on and stay laser focused on through their leadership journey.

[26:23] Robert Jordan: It's a great question Radwa, the first is going to sound very easy and it's actually very hard to do which is that as a leader over time, as you develop expertise, you have to come to embrace who you are as a leader, you have to come to an understanding within yourself of what, as we would say, is your highest and best use.

[26:48] Robert Jordan: While that sounds easy and people will say, well, of course I'm doing that. Actually the reality is that the majority of leaders do not. Yes and what happens over time is that they tend more to dilute their efforts and that if you were to look at their resumes, they show more of this tendency to try to be all things to all people and successful leaders do not do that. Our observation was that these highly successful leaders were much more likely to reject what was not for their highest and best. Yeah, I would say as well, it's really important as you discover the thing, you love the thing that you are great at what resonates you have to double down and then you have to do it again.

[27:37] Robert Jordan: You have to do it again and this is what leads to more rejection of what is not for your highest and best use. That is what really pointed out to us. What was making for successful fixers artists, builders and strategists is that they kept on doubling down within this thing that they loved and really avoiding clients projects, roles, situations, where it was not.

[28:05] Robert Jordan: I'll give you an example Cheryl Sandberg of meta, formerly known as FACEBOOK she has to be regarded as one of the greatest COOs chief operating officers of all time, because she went to Facebook when it was a couple hundred employees and about a hundred million in revenue and she took the organization to about 70,000 employees and over a hundred billion in revenue.

[28:36] Robert Jordan: Stack that up against. In the modern era for an ability to build an organization. Right. She said, when she joined there, she probably was going to have a tour of duty. That would be five years. The first seven years I would say is as remarkable as any leader had, but then what she did was she stuck around for another seven years and then things started to happen.

[29:01] Robert Jordan: There was the Cambridge Analytica scandal. Yeah. There were problems with election information. There was a shift to META that it doesn't seem like she was quite as enthusiastic about and so part of this is that all of us as leaders can overstay our welcome. 

[29:25] Robert Jordan: Another way of saying you're not acting in your highest and best use and so, for example, for a phenomenal builder, we would call Cheryl Sandberg phenomenal builder leader. She's the same as other builder leaders, which is when you've taken it to scale, it's highly likely that you should move on to something else.

[29:44] Radwa Hassan: Absolutely and you know what, just happy that you mentioned Cheryl sandberg to be honest, I think she combines not just one style, but different styles. Like she would go for a builder, definitely a strategist because really she sees the whole picture and somehow she must have this artist angle to her style because what she has done with Facebook Meta is really great and she was coming from another great company. I mean, coming from Google and going to Facebook and some people would just like, and she was big and in Google. So you would say, I was just like really leaving Google and just like. Going it's something that's not easy.

[30:28] Radwa Hassan: It's like you're scaling down you going from the top and taking this challenge of trying to do different things with, I see meta Facebook, a controversial company. So it's full of lots of challenges and it's not easy to take it to where it is right now.

[30:51] Robert Jordan: You're pointing out something that it's really important when you said that Cheryl Sandberg moving from Google to Facebook to this really young organization was scale down or a step down if you will.

[31:09] Robert Jordan: But  among confident leaders, that's not, she did the right thing. Yes, I'm sure. Google, I guess we did not interview her. My guess is that at Google, she realized her challenge was over and she needed a new challenge and she did the exact right thing by taking on Facebook and she was brilliant. She proved it out.

[31:32] Robert Jordan: I think there were probably signs she should have seen. She became very passionate about writing the book lean in which I think was a wonderful thing for her to go and those can be signs for someone on their own leader leadership journey, which is maybe I need to look at something else. 

[31:51] Radwa Hassan: Yeah, New challenges, like the artist who needs, or someone who needs to have multiple parallel inspiring projects running at the same time to feel like they're really motivated. So sometimes when it's business as usual, it's not as inspiring and motivating. 

[32:09] Robert Jordan: Yeah, if I can share one other Trait we found as a commonality among Fabs leaders it would be collaboration on steroids, all leaders we're all trained. We all hear every day. You have to collaborate. You have to be great at collaboration. I think the majority of leaders probably are not that good at it, that they don't necessarily have the confidence that for the thing that they are not absolutely great at, they could trust someone else on the team or another leader who could be better than them, right?

[32:44] Robert Jordan: If something which is not core and what we saw among these successful fabs leaders was a much greater ability to collaborate, to recognize the contribution of everybody else in the team and that that would produce superior results.  

[32:59] Radwa Hassan: I fully agree on that point, and it's really hard and that point on collaboration as well as do it like you mean it, or rather it's a lot of people talk about it, but not everyone gets it right and they do it genuinely so yeah great point there.

[33:19] Robert Jordan: Yes one of the psychologist that we interviewed, the way he described it. I thought was funny. He said, you have to be spiky and what he meant by that is if you were looking at a chart of a variety of traits that you hope for in a company and on a team, these abilities, it's not that any one individual has it all.

[33:39] Robert Jordan: None of us do. It's the contribution you make on a team. You have to be spiky in a way that I'm not and I have to be spiky in a way that you are not. One of the Google managers we interviewed, he said, it's that everyone has to be accretive. They truly have to be additive to the effort of the team, including whoever the leader is. 

[34:04] Radwa Hassan: Exactly what you're bringing to the team, what you are contributing with. It's not just being a leader, it's really how you are chipping in with creativity or a new idea. It's not just waiting for everyone to chip in, but again, collaboration and understanding the role as a leader within the team is something not everybody gets it right.

[34:31] Radwa Hassan: So to our listeners, I would really encourage you to read Bob's book, "Right Leader, Right Time" Discover your leadership STYLE, for a winning career and company, a great book, and really an eye opener to so many of the points on the leadership styles and It would give you great insights.

[35:05] Radwa Hassan: So thank you so much, Bob, really an exciting discussion and I look forward to maybe another one where we can elaborate more on the styles and the leadership journey. 

[35:11] Robert Jordan: Thank you so much, Radwa. It's been a pleasure to be with you. I'm honored.

[35:14] Radwa Hassan: Thank you. Thank you, so thank you very much, everyone for listening and have a great evening.

[34:25] The End