S1 E9 - Leadership Biases and How to Be an Inclusive and Inspiring Leader

What separates a great leader from a mediocre one? 

A manager’s behavior has a direct link to employee experiences of inclusion—in fact, almost half of an employee’s experience of inclusion can be explained by managerial inclusive leadership behaviors.

Employees’ experiences of inclusion at work explain how constructively teams problem-solve, how engaged employees are, how interested they are in staying at their jobs, and how much they feel like they can innovate.

This Episode of The B2B POD is intended to help leaders understand how to move towards a more inclusive approach to leadership and steer away by unconscious biases. Listen in as our Host Radwas Hassan engages in a discussion with Mustafa Ali, a Sales Leader and a Leadership coach based in the UAE. 

In this Episode: 

• We introduce you to our gracious host Radwa Hassan and our guest Mustafa Ali
• Learn about systematic biases and unconscious biases
• How to ensure diversity and inclusion within your organization and team
• Our Guest shared his expertise on how to be an inclusive leader

Check your Biases -

 https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

Follow us on the following platforms to never miss out on any updates: Instagram -

https://www.instagram.com/theb2b_pod/

Facebook -
https://www.facebook.com/TheB2BPOD

LinkedIn -
 https://www.linkedin.com/company/78324636/


Website -
https://www.thepodcast.ae/theb2bpod/

Radwa LinkedIn -
https://www.linkedin.com/in/radwa-hassan/

Mustafa LinkedIn -
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mustafa5/

Review The B2B POD on your favourite platform to let us know what you think about the show.

Thank You!

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Radwa Hassan: Hello, and welcome to a new episode of The B2B

POD. I really have the pleasure today of hosting an amazing guest, Mustafa Ali. Our

 title for this episode is "Leadership Biases and How to Be Inclusive and Inspiring."

Leader.

[00:00:20] 

Welcome to The B2B POD by The Pulse of Dubai, with your host Radwa Hassan. A podcast that touches upon everything that's going on, in and around the B2B industry.

[00:00:38] 

Radwa Hassan: My guest is Mustafa Ali. Mustafa is a sales leader and a leadership coach Based in the U.S., he has worked with aspiring leaders from Fortune 500 companies to accelerate their leadership journey. Mustafa as an ICF-credentialed ICC and a certified workplace big five practitioner Coach are known for working with established and aspiring leaders to help them mental barriers and realize their full potential. His Leadership skills and coaching are strengthened by a master's degree in business psychology. Mustafa strongly believes in Lyship and works closely with women leaders to strengthen their voices, allowing him to continue coaching. action-oriented. And I really like this part, which is about executive coaching. Practice. Mustafa also leads the Mosaic chapter for the middle east at his company welcome, Mustafa. Thank you so much for joining us. How are you? 

[00:01:39] 

Mustafa Ali: It's a pleasure to be here, Alda. Thank you for having

me. I'm doing great.

[00:01:42]

 Radwa Hassan: Great. And can I ask you about the mosaic chapter?

just out of curiosity?

[00:01:48]

 Mustafa Ali: Sure. So within the organization that I work for, ERGs are a very strong pillar of what we do as employee resource groups. And once such, ERG is the mosaic wherein we try to bring in individuals from different backgrounds and different contexts into the organization and make sure that they are recognized and promoted, and equal opportunity is provided to, you know, every single person within the organization. and also address topics that organizations generally don't. So it's a safe space for employees to discuss a variety of topics that actually impact them, their well-being, and how the organization could actually help.

[00:02:30]

 Radwa Hassan: Wow, this is really impressive. I really like this. the initiative, and what would undoubtedly catch up with you on that front. So our The topic is a very interesting one, and it is about biases and the impact of biases everywhere. Our angle for this episode is about the biases in the workplace. As a result, most leaders enter the role without much thought. attention to biases, and we all have biases depending on our upbringing and life experiences and biases. Whether conscious or subconscious, consciousness plays out in our lives. And there can be a debt rate. So in the episode, we will be diving deeper into the steps for recognizing biases and overcoming them on an individual level, and then  At an organizational level, different sets of biases and challenges and also the types of biases that we encounter and cannot have a better person.to speak about that than Mustafa.  We spoke a lot about the different types and challenges that females see in the workplace, sometimes some biases, and also for males.  We're not talking only about females; we're talking about males and females. In general, there is a conscious or unconscious bias against any gender or race in the workplace culture. So Mustafa, would you be able to give me your angle and your definition of conscious bias? 

[00:04:01] 

Mustafa Ali: I think it's a great starting point. Let's define, let's call out the elephant in the room. So conscious biases. These are biased attitudes about a group that can be either visible or invisible, that you know, that come into. The unconscious, on the other hand, is biases that operate outside of your awareness and your control, and they can be particularly difficult to be aware of because, in many instances, these are the biases that you have been conditioned to as a little child in many instances. So those are, you know, that's a simple definition, I guess, of the unconscious. Conscious bias.

[00:04:42]

 Radwa Hassan: I really would want to define both of them. Mmhmm., because there is systematic bias and unconscious bias that we all have. also want to draw the audience's attention to

[00:04:51] 

Mustafa Ali: Sure. So I would define unconscious bias as the things you are aware of. grown up with, right? You're not even aware. These things exist. Unconscious biases, on the other hand, are learned through experience. Consider a child watching a cartoon as a child during those episodes. Characters are typically portrayed. You see depictions of bad or evil characters with darker skin tones. A superhero. Generally, women have a lighter skin tone, and this is so unconscious that, growing up as a child, it's ingrained. I remember this experiment that was done; I can't remember by whom, but a three-year-old girl was given a variety of dolls of different skin tones. And she was asked to pick the most beautiful doll, and she picked up a white doll because, subconsciously, she was somehow conditioned to think that white is beautiful and black is not.

[00:06:00] 

Radwa Hassan: Okay, I was just having a very specific conversation with my 10-year-old daughter. interest, and she was like, "Well, I'm not pretty." So I said, "Why, why'd you say that?" You're so pretty to me. You're smart. And it's not, and I started to go on lecturing about how smart it is or that it's not about the outside beauty and all these things. And then she said, "No, the only pretty girls are the blonde girls." Yeah. And it got me to a point where I told her, "Okay, let's dig up Miss Universe on Google for the last five years," and how I started to get out the pictures and I said, "None of them are blonde." So it's not about being blonde; it's not the color. And this is, as you said, spot on, that kids and many generations are led to believe that these are the standards, and it's even now more Perhaps there was less pressure when we were younger, but we were under some assumptions. They were not deeply rooted because there was no social media. Now, with all that social media pressure, peer pressure, and perfection that people have tried to bring to their looks and everything else, kids are becoming absolutely perfect. so overwhelmed by that. And it's a 24-by-7 stimulation

[00:07:26]

 Mustafa Ali: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's nonstop. It's in our face at all times. We have reached a point, as I think it was Simon Sinek who said, where "normal" has become unacceptable. The standards have been skewed to such a degree because of all the filters that you have on your Instagrams and TikToks that normal is no longer beautiful.

[00:07:46] 

Radwa Hassan: Awesome. And if we look at the different types that you had mentioned 

[00:07:50] 

Mustafa Ali: without a doubt. Yeah, no, thank you for bringing that up. Five types. I mean, since we are speaking about leaders and organizations, in psychology, we typically identify five biases that are at work. play at a workplace. Right. I'll quickly list that for our listeners. You know, starting with the affinity bias, which is very simply defined as "we prefer what is like us" over what is different. Then we have an experience bias, which simply means that we prefer to act quickly rather than taking our time, like rushing into things and then coming into the safety bias, although it might sound good, but again, it's still a bias. Essentially, this is how we protect ourselves from loss rather than seeking to gain. Then you have distance bias, meaning we prefer what is closer to what is more distant. Imagine, you know, colleagues sitting Perhaps someone closer to your office is dearer to you or more important to you. You compared yourself to someone who is in a different city, perhaps. And finally, if you have an experience bias, where we take our perception to be the absolute truth, and objective truth. So there you go. Those are your five biases that impact our workplace.

[00:09:06]

 Radwa Hassan:  Thank you. And if we dig deeper and talk about mm-hmm, eliminating bias, In the workplace, what is your view and, and a best practice or rather a good example of how you see eliminating biases 

[00:09:22]

 Mustafa Ali: Sure. in the workplace? Great question, but I have to say this: if you are a human, you are biased. So there is no silver bullet. There is no way you can eliminate bias completely. That is simply not going to happen.  Cause if. You know, individual who thinks, then you are biased. That's as simple as that. What can be done, though, is to manage these biases. You can become self-aware; you can learn about these biases and understand how they manifest.  And then every single decision you take could be an informed decision rather than jumping on one of the biases thatwe spoke. And there are numerous steps we could take in terms of of how we start and how we go about it  

[00:10:09] 

Radwa Hassan: Yeah. Can we go into maybe a few of the steps that you believe are really good to keep an eye on to make sure we're following that path?

[00:10:19] 

Mustafa Ali: Absolutely, absolutely. I think, you know, in my opinion, the first step towards solving any problem in life is to acknowledge that one exists. The same is true for biases. I think as leaders, so, I mean, it's important for leaders and, you know, everyone else. I would even say that every single person should understand where those biases are coming from. Where and whatIs it that you are more drawn towards? Only then can you perhaps figure out how you could actually, you know, manage it. One The simple way is, you know, first and foremost, in my opinion, to accept that you are biased. There are no two ways about it, right? So we are all biased. The second thing would be to identify and recognize those biases. And one simple way to do this is to look at something your users—sorry, your listeners may want to simply Google "Is the project implicit?" Now, this was a program that was developed by a couple of professors, wherein they have about 30 to 40 odd tests for different biases that exist in the workplace. And otherwise, you could actually go on and take that survey that takes that test. It is absolutely confidential. You don't have to share. the results with And if you take that survey, you will learn a lot about yourself. So that is really the starting point for recognizing where your biases are. Once you have done that, that gives you the information and insight you need to handle it. Now, if you are among the brave, I will call your phone so you can serve yourself. It cannot be a named survey; it is not required to be. It could very well be anonymous. Just ask your teams, and like I said, it's for the brave. And be prepared to be surprised by your team. peers, colleagues, and various lines of business to fill out that survey for you. And there you have it. You know, you have exact data to reflect on.

[00:12:37] 

Radwa Hassan: That brings me to a question about the tests and surveys that the organizations do. How far do you see they take their results very seriously and specifically, because of the space that you're talking about with the business psychology and the coaching and all the different assessments, the psychometrics, the 360s that some organizations would use. But I see that in most cases when they use them, it's either to decide on a promotion or just to put a tick in a box to make sure that they have done it. 

How far do you see them taking this seriously enough to really take the right action and measures? 

[00:13:17]

 Mustafa Ali: Sure. So I have yet to come across an organization that actually does some testing on biases. I don't think one exists because it's very personal and people protect what they say, how they react to their best ability, trying to demonstrate that they are unbiased. The surveys and, you know, tests you spoke about rightly are used for succession planning, promotions, and so forth. Perhaps the closest you could get is the assessment of the values to understand what your values are. But that's as far as it gets. But for biases, the reason why I say you should look at something you know, similar to Project Implicit, is because it's personal. You know what your biases are, and if you know, only then can you address them. If the organization has to address the biases that a leader is displaying, then it's a different conversation that is simply about discrimination, racism, or whatever term is applicable. Then it's a different matter. But I guess our conversation is about what I could do today as a leader that would help me become a better leader: A and empower my team and support my team, and help them thrive. 

[00:14:29] 

Radwa Hassan: Yeah, certainly. I fully agree with you. That's a great tip. But before we leave that, I want to ask you about the tool, about the biases that you have mentioned. This is a free tool, right? 

[00:14:39]

 Mustafa Ali: It is an absolutely free tool that there are hundreds and thousands of people have taken surveys. So there are lots of data points, and they are absolutely confidential. You don't have to share it with anyone, not with your employee, not with your family, you know, just it's for your eyes only. 

[00:14:55] 

Radwa Hassan: Perfect. Then I believe we would need your help to add the link there, so if you can provide me with the link so that we can add it to the episode for our listeners to make benefit of this tool. So that would be great. So we also touch on this in our discussions. On the biases against certain gender, which is in some cases the females with the different challenges that they face in accelerating their career in growing in business. So can we mention a few of the different biases that you see? Some females. Go through it from your point of view.

[00:15:34] 

Mustafa Ali: Absolutely, and I think it's, it's an, it's alarming to be honest. And if you look at the latest data that is coming out, especially in the tech industry, women hold only 26.7% of the jobs. Right. And. It has actually gone down from 2020 to 21; we are down 2% year over year. Mm-hmm. , so that gives you an indication of the female talent that we have as, as not fully being recognized, not perhaps not being empowered systematically. or otherwise, but there is evidence to suggest that a lot can be done to improve the diversity, inclusion, and promotion of female leaders. Now, what can be done? That is what your question was. I would imagine, yeah. I think organizations need to start looking at where they are, looking at the data, and that's the best place to start, right? Look at your attrition rates, right? You know, what have your attrition rates been in your organization if you were to split it by gender? That is a great indication of how your organization is being perceived by the different demographics within your workforce. That is a great place to start. And the second thing is to, you know, foster those conversations, and have them openly in the organization where you are supporting them. By doing so, you are creating allies, and demonstrating that your organization stands for inclusion in a real sense. One simple example of how to do that could be the language. In my career, I have come across a lot of sales. Who would refer to a salesperson as "he" at all times? I have met doctors. Yeah. And the moment they say "doctor," you say "he," so the first response is, "It's a male." The leader is a male. Yeah. Right. The salesperson is a male. The doctor is a male. That needs to change. And that can only happen if your language includes and reflects where you stand for. 

 [00:17:44] 

Radwa Hassaan: Yeah. and thank you so much for the reference to the industry, the tech industry. Because in one of the articles that I came across, it talked about how in most cultures, masculinity and leadership are closely linked. But now it's not about the culture thing; it's about an industry. It's about the common practice that you have referred to, even in job roles like sales. That's mostly what you're thinking of when you think of a salesperson. And I'm sorry to say that sometimes when we think of a female salesperson, we say, "Well, we need to make this balance in the team, not because we are looking at the skills or the value that she's going to bring." So it's really alarming and the decline. More alarming is that it continues to go down. The other point that I also see is that there is more tolerance when a male leader goes wrong and the company performs really badly when there is a male leader and certain justifications that, "Oh, why did he go wrong?" But when there is a female leader and she goes wrong on strategy, she also gets all the blame. She always gets all the blame. It's because she's female. It's because we have brought a female to lead the company, so she cannot do a good job. We talked about logic not being so logical anymore, but the fact that I am seeing lots of male CEOs is interesting. And very senior people really go wrong about the strategies that they're running. And just like people say, "Oh yeah, well," Just an example

[00:19:33] 

Mustafa Ali: No, there's no denying that there's added scrutiny on female leaders in any space, not just at an organizational, even at government levels, right? Female prime ministers are subject to different norms, as we have seen recently, you know, with a Prime Minister for a European country. There's no denial in that. Right. And again, going back to the point I was making earlier, these are the biases that exist, and this is how people have operated for many, many years. So it becomes even so important that people recognize what they are, you know, saying how they are behaving in reality versus what they think there is. And that can only happen with self-awareness. I usually say that self-awareness is a superpower. And I guess all of us leaders within organizations need to be aware of where our biases are and try to make sure that the metrics of what good looks like are the same for a male or female leader.

[00:20:37] 

Radwa Hassan: Yeah, most certainly. And, it's like even sometimes if a female leader works in a traditionally male dominated space, she's viewed as maybe competent, but that's likable than the other male counterparts because it's seen that she is trying to. So she's not a female, but if she acts like a female in some situations, she's soft and weak. So you really don't feel sometimes like what you guys really want the females to act, to be assertive, but you take assertiveness [00:21:00] as if she's trying to copy men. And it's not a genuine treat. Or if she's soft, it's because she's female. So it's somehow confusing. And my other question would be for the younger generations, if you have younger females on the team, how would you guide them about going into handling? "About handling the biases or talking to their bosses if they witness any biases."  

[00:21:39] 

Mustafa Ali: Sure. There's no silver bullet to this, right? You know, regardless of male or female. I think all of us, when we are starting off in our careers or even as established leaders, should always strive to seek out different perspectives from our own. Right. And, and find people with common backgrounds, people with different backgrounds, different experiences, different interests and get to learn. Just be curious about it, right? Of course, if you are facing discrimination because you are male or female, you should definitely talk about it, right? In the first instance.I would suggest to anyone take it up with the person whom you felt you know was, was being biased towards you. Have that conversation and let them know how you feel. Perhaps they will be able to explain what their behavior was. not right, and they would do something to change it or maybe clear up any misunderstanding. So that is usually the first step. If that works, brilliant. If it doesn't, I'm sure organizations, at least a vast majority of organizations do have systems in place where this could be safely brought to the attention of senior leaders or your HR department if it goes in that direction. But organizations should also have created safe spaces for their employees to come forward and share about whether they're feeling like they're being treated equally or being discriminated against, creating that psychological safety, if you like. 

[00:23:11]

 Radwa Hassan:  I really like that feedback, and I think it's a great tip for every gender and age group, of course, in the workspace. I wanted to ask you about the access to the informal networks in organizations, especially for females, and we're all aware of that. In most organizations, there is an informal network of either leaders or managers. Getting women to have access to this network and to sponsors is not the easiest. This is one of the toughest things because it's dominated by men, and when she tries to penetrate it, especially in our region, as you have also rightly mentioned, it's not easy. How can we handle that? 

[00:23:58]

 Mustafa Ali: Organizations and senior leaders, I guess they play a major role when it comes to breaking, if I can use the word, the traditional way of running organizations, if you like. What I mean by that is that we spoke about Mosaic at the beginning of our conversation.  Mustafa Ali: So Mosaic is, is. You know, one of the ERGs so organizations could look at as one of the steps is to, you know, create employee resource group within, within their teams and, and organizations wherein people from different backgrounds, from diverse backgrounds, diverse experiences can actually work on something that benefits the employees. They don't have to be from the same department or group. You're mixing up a lot of different teams based on their interests and the group that they would like to be a part of. That could be one thing—the creation of those employees, those groups.

 [00:24:30] 

Mustafa Ali: Second thing is also mixing up the teams. Traditionally, you would have your team designed in a certain way, perhaps given your business needs. Of course, you look at how it is that you could have a good blend of a team that includes people from diverse backgrounds, and you spoke about challenges for females to enter into these inner circles where men usually are and are not open to having any new members. So that could be one of the ideas to consider. 

[00:25:21] 

Radwa Hassan: Awesome. And I think this is a great, great step to follow because it is very critical, and I've seen it with some networks in some organizations, where females are not part of them. Some decisions are made or discussions are had that she's not part of and she feels left out. How can you ensure that you have enough diversity and inclusion in your organization and within your team? 

[00:25:51] 

Mustafa Ali: It all begins with hiring. Hiring is the first step. Right now. The steps that you generally would want to take is to look at where your teams are and look at, you know, what could contribute to the, to the mission and the vision of the organization. So it starts with recruitment as an organization, and I would even take it a step further. I would also say, In fact starts at, at a college level. You know, you are essentially preparing, you know, individuals to be  ready for the rules that you want to be filled. So step one starts at, you know, the college, university government level, where the resources are provided and everything that an individual needs is given to them. But coming back to the original question, which is about how this could be done within organizations? Now, one thing you've got to look at is, you know, how have you been doing over the past few years? Like, just look at your data and get a sense of where you are today, and based on that, make those hiring decisions, which are, you know, yes, you're finding the right fit, but can you do a little more on your hiring practices? Can your recruiter reach out to 10 more candidates and find a wider pool of candidates to bring? The second thing is building allies. Now, we spoke about systematic, you know, suppression. We spoke about how organizations don't necessarily go about promoting. So creating that  culture of allyship within organizations where no one feels that they are left out. I mean, last time we spoke, we spoke about the language of inclusion, right? The leaders usually, you know, and I've seen. Quite a lot of times when you're referring to a salesperson, you always say he right? and you are referring to a leader. You always say "he," even for a doctor. So that is a challenge. The language needs to be inclusive. It needs to be a part of your operating model, and finally, you need to create an environment of psychological safety. if at all. At any point, any member of your team, male or female, feels they have an opinion. Give them the space to speak up; give them the space to express how they're feeling about it.

[00:28:10] 

Radwa Hassan: So if we are talking now about ensuring that we have enough diversity and inclusion in an organization, what would be your recommendation to other leaders? What would you do within your team 

[00:28:26] 

Mustafa Ali: So one of them. One of the things that we got to start at, and even before I answer, you know, what is it that we could do as leaders to have better inclusion? I actually wanna take a step back and, and talk about what you know, women can do for themselves, you know, and, and what others, such as people in power organizations, colleges, schools can do to, you know, foster that growth. What is really important is that we recognize that there is a problem where we do not have enough females. Systematically or unsystematically either the women are not applying for the roles that they should be applying for, or there is a, you know, a certain way where female applicants are turned down. So it starts with that, right? First we gotta make sure that female leaders or, or aspiring leaders, should I say, have got access to good mentors. They have got access to content that will make them. They feel more confident. I remember attending one of the workshops run by Google, it was called "I Am Remarkable," and it was a brilliant workshop. That just boosts the confidence of people who are participating in those sessions and gives them the sense that, you know what, I'm ready for this role. [00:29:19] Mustafa Ali: A lot of the issues I have, or challenges, that I see with working with my clients is, the "imposter syndrome." They don't think they're ready for it. And I tell them, "No, you are absolutely ready for it." Just go and apply. Right? So self-rejection is a huge issue that needs to be tackled, ensuring that, as an organization, you do everything you possibly can to have that environment of encouragement. That's it. Number two is the systematic operation where you say, "Oh, you know what, this role requires a male candidate, right?" Now I fully recognize that there might be a certain client who does not want to work in a certain way. So you have our clients like that. I'm not going to deny that. However, for the vast majority, that's absolutely nonsense. You know, and it's just our own biases preventing us from bringing talented female individuals onto the team. I remember I used to run a business development team in Saudi Arabia at one point. And 65% of my team was female. And it was by design because the caliber and work ethic that they demonstrated were unparalleled. Unparalleled. It, it, wow. You know, I mean, I was new to the country. I was learning the country myself, but it was an eye opener for me. Until this date, and, you know, I fully recognize that perhaps it was the most amazing time to be a part of it. The journey that Saudi Arabia is on at the moment. Right. So those are the two things that we have to take into consideration before we actually get onto encouraging or looking at the steps that females should be taking.

[00:31:32]

 Radwa Hassan: Perfect. Let me ask you about women's access to networks and sponsors; sometimes there are gatekeepers. So what are the different ways that you would suggest to not necessarily get across the gatekeepers, but to be part of the networks within an organization for a female, if this is the way to be connected more in. 

[00:31:57] 

Mustafa Ali:  Yep. No, that's a great question. It's a practical example, you know, or rather a challenge that we see, especially in our part of the world, in the Gulf, where it's hard to penetrate. Yeah into groups that are predominantly male. I mean, I've seen at events wherein, you know, individuals in at round table are, you know, all males are, it's a tight circle. It's, it's not easy to get in now. Yeah. How could an organizer look at it? So two steps in my. Number one, you know, have, you know, some sort of ERGs within organizations, employee resource groups, you know where you are. Doing work that is, yes, for the organization, but not necessarily just the daily job you do. There is other stuff that you could look at to create ERGs that would benefit the employees. And the second and an important thing, mmhmm. is to mix up the teams and finally, it's training, right? Calling out the elephant in the room if a behavior like that is observed and then it, it's worth bringing it to the table.

[00:33:20]

 Radwa Hassan:  Yeah, definitely. for those who are going to cooperate to do that. Sure. Right. Perfect. It's really spot on and has very practical examples. I believe that would be very helpful for so many to follow. Let me ask you now My, mm-hmm. . My favorite question, I would say for every, for every guest, what are your very golden tips and tricks that you would give to other leaders to work on their subconscious biases and to be open to that because I personally see that some people don't believe even that they have biases. They keep pushing back and saying, "No, no, no, we don't have that." No, no, no. It's, it's, it's imagination, it's delusion, it's whatever. So what would be your key tips to that?

[00:34:09] 

Mustafa Ali: Sure. So let, let, I'll speak in, in a general sense. So you rightly said, "I mean, we think we are perfect." We think our thinking is absolutely objective. I'm not biased. Absolutely neutral. We all think that way, but it couldn't be further from the truth. Now, one simple example of that. And again, you know, no one has to share with others. Just reflect now, go back in your own workplace life or, outside of work, wherever you are, and it's a question that, you know, people should be asking themselves. Have you ever assigned the task of organizing a party or a get together to a female colleague of yours without telling her? Have you assigned maybe a task that is to at accounting or math to an Asian colleague of yours? Right? Mm-hmm. , if you have done that, you are biased because your biases are telling you that, oh, females are better at organizing birthday parties or get togethers or conferences even maybe, I don't know. Or you think that Asians are good at math, so let's give them a math problem. If you have done that, You are biased. And I mean, these are just two examples, but reflection is, is really, really important that we as leaders or even as firing leaders reflect and identify, you know, where our biases may be. A job of a leader is to have that inclusive environment in the team, inclusive environment within the organization. And we spoke about one of the things, which is the language. You know, focus on the language, focus on what you say, how you say, and how it impacts your teams, and just be aware of that, and it will go a long way. And creating that environment of I. Thirdly, I would advise them to get a mentor or a coach. Could be within organization, could be outside their organization. Mm-hmm. . But you need someone who could show you the mirror, who could have those objective conversations wherein it provides you the space to grow and recognize your own full potential. not only to eliminate biases and whatnot but also to become a leader who inspires. Right. And here's my advice for aspiring leaders, right? So you are an aspiring leader today, and tomorrow you will be a leader. And being in  a leadership position is a privilege, a responsibility, and an honor. So my advice is, "Always be aware that you are biased." can be biased and learn how to manage them on a regular basis. And, finally, once you have gotten to the position where you want to be, give it back to the people. Give it back to the people who have supported you. Give it back to the community. Become a mentor to someone who could emulate you and, you know, go on to the journey that they aspire to be. Those would be my, you know, takeaways for leaders as well as aspiring leaders. 

[00:37:12] 

Radwa Hassan: That's great. Thank you so much, Mustafa. Very, very useful, helpful tips and guidelines, I think, to raise that level of awareness that we all need to.Whether it's conscious or subconscious bias for all leaders and for everyone, I think this is part of the, could, we could include it as the climate change. It's part of a climate change that we need to raise awareness around in the organizations. 

[00:37:43]

 Mustafa Ali: So, indeed, it's going to take time, but it will happen. Will happen.

[00:37:47]

 Radwa Hassan: It will happen. Thank you so much, Mustafa. Really a pleasure to host you and look forward to maybe more episodes with you. So, uh, hopefully, thank you for having me. Thank you. So thanks to our listeners. Please make sure to check the link to the free tool and check your biases. Thank you. 

[00:38:10] 

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the B2B Pod by the Pulse of Dubai with your host, Radwa Hassan. This show was brought to you by Logichron. If you aren't already, make sure you subscribe to our podcast on Spotify, Google, or Apple podcasts. If you have any questions or suggestions, you can visit us. The podcast ae and follow us on social media at The B2B POD. see you next time.