S1 E3 - Digital Marketing and the engineering of consent

Are you wondering what is the role of digitalization in the marketing and ad industry? Or want to know Karim’s perception of Influencer marketing? If yes, then tune in as we bring to you, Episode 3 of the B2B POD where our host Radwa Hassan with our guest Karim Fahmy speaks about Digital Marketing and the engineering of consent. 

In this Episode,

●  We introduce you to our lovely host Radwa Hassan and our guest Karim Fahmy

●  Give you an overview of the role of digitalization in the marketing and ad industry

●  Our guest gives recommendations & tips on how you could protect yourself from  
    digital  fatigue and overselling?       

In closing, we'd like to say thank you for tuning in to The B2B POD this week. We hope to see you for Episode 4.

Episode highlight:

[00:45]  Radwa Hassan Introduces the guest Karim Fahmy 

[01:10]  About Karim

[03:44]  Radwa asks Karim what are some of the trends that we see in the marketing
and ad industry 

[05:33]  Karim explains the impact of technology

[06:35]  Karim explains the ROI aspects 

[06:53]  Karim explains about traditional marketing

[07:41]  Radwas hassan speaks about lazy marketing

[10:28]  Karim talks about the Digital Services Act 

[11:06]  Radwa asks about the impact of influencer marketing

[12:50]  Karim explains about the traditional ways of influencer marketing

[13:46]  Radwa asks about the EU regulations of the Digital Services Act and its impact on content marketing 

[15:52]  Radwa asks about what is the Digital Services Act and how it works

[16:44]  Karim explains about platforms and their claims to take down content

[17:02]  Karim explains about content engagement 

[19:22]  Radwa talks about Platforms and their algorithms 

[21:47]  Radwa asks how would you protect yourself as a consumer from the digital fatigue and the overselling 

[23:54]  Karim talks about the past advertising trends

[26:42]  Karim gives his recommendations and tips on how to retain customers 

[30:10]  Karim talks about the term Digital first

[31:38]  The End 

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Radwa LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/radwa-hassan/

Karim Fahmy - https://www.linkedin.com/in/karimf/

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Thank You!

Podcast Description:

The B2B POD is the next big source of information about what’s happening in the B2B industry. The podcast is a one-stop shop for everyone interested in updating themselves w

Transcript

Transcript 

Episode 3 -  Karim Fahmy

Topic:  Digital marketing and the engineering of consent

(00:01) Radwa Hassan
Hello and welcome everyone to our third episode of The B2B POD by The Pusle of Dubai. Our episode is a very interesting one today and we have a great guest. I can't really wait to share with you all the insights that he's going to bring. In our episode we are going to focus on what are some of the trends we see in the marketing and ad industry and we are going to also talk about the opportunities these trends present.

(00:45) Radwa Hassan 
I really have the pleasure to welcome Karim Fahmy to our episode today and Karim is not only a passionate advertising and marketing professional but also he is one of the key subject matter experts in the ad industry and region. To give you a little background on his career Karim has been a valued advisor at board level with prominent leadership roles held within general management.Through to marketing and communications directorship and as a media director as well. Karim thrives in overcoming complex business challenges irrespective of market conditions with a strong focus on driving results. He is Senior Integrated Marcom Strategist with over 19 years of extensive global experience in the (U.S, EMEA) having worked with CARAT US, Starcom Mediavest, IPG Mediabrands I mean that is just to name a few  & TONIC Media and so many of the media companies. He possess an entrepreneurial drive and a combination of media communications, business strategy, and operational expertise. Part of his key achievements is positioning agencies to regain client confidence and rebuild business on Unilever and L’Oréal accounts by teaming with agency GMs and MDs to formulate strategy and ensure rapid-response campaign executions. He has also pioneered and developed a research tool named Navigator. He Earned a rare 4/5 agency performance score from P&G after overcoming prevailing skepticism—plus market, culture, and language obstacles—to deliver media audit and strategy for 22 brands in less than 4 weeks. Wow that is absolutely impressive and amazing. It is my pleasure to welcome you Karim to our episode on the Digital Marketing and the engineering of consent. So welcome to The B2B POD.

(03:27) Karim Fahmy
Thank you Radwa for the great intro. It is really nice to be here and I'm looking forward to having a nice chat.

(03:33) Radwa Hassan
Thanks Karim. So in our episode, we're going to focus on what are some of the trends that we see in the marketing and ad industry. And we're going to also talk about the opportunities these trends present. The ease of access to data on the internet, encourages companies to exploit it to their own benefit. And many years ago, communicating with consumers and customers and trying to get their attention meant, leveraging creativity, of course but there was an effort back then being put to come up with something. Which on point brings insights, it's insight driven and creative today because of digitalization. The industry thinking has shifted to think like more of an accountant where it's more about ROI, which is fine, of course, thinking of the ROI because you have to bring back the dollars that you're investing, but what are really the means and what are the tools that you're using for that and also showing where the dollars are and how you can show that your investment is successful. All this has got us into a mode of maybe lazy creativity or lack of innovations and in some campaigns I'm seeing that. And my question here to Kareem would be, do you think the digital marketing has negatively impacted innovation and creativity in the ad industry, or it has improved it?   

(05:09)  Karim Fahmy 
Radwa well, thank you. Definitely this is quite an interesting and touchy topic and it's like walking in a minefield because whatever I say will be debated depending on your school of thought from my point of view. I think on the one hand there's been a lot of innovation. A lot of creativity on the technological front. So you know algorithms and neuroscience and mind mapping and measuring emotion. So some crazy, crazy stuff but on the other hand because digital is basically where most investments are by virtue of the assets that you're using or where you're investing your money  be it search or display or social media, you're quite limited in terms of visuals, you're quite limited in terms of text, you're just quite limited. So it is with TV, with traditional TV being on the decline, clients aren't spending that much on print. So there isn't really that much of I would say thought being put in terms of creating these crazy insight-driven visuals or these very  interesting TVCs, which are tongue and cheek by virtue of where your money is going. And like you said it's very ROI driven. So it's all measured in terms of conversion. It's all measured in terms of clicks impressions. So the industry is definitely changed. By virtue of where your money is being spent on. You are seeing less focus on the traditional creative assets that were being used and more of thinking being put in terms of how to target people in terms of frequency and reach, depending on where they are in the funnel and the type of message you're going to present to your clients. So it's really messaging and where you are in the funnel. So it's a totally different shift in terms of the traditional way that we think of creativity and advertising. And in terms of the state of the industry now, or just the state of the world.

(07:25) Radwa Hassan 
Yeah, I agree as well, because I see that so much content that's out there.They all look the same. I mean, there are, of course, some creative ideas that come out, but a lot of them are the same. You cannot differentiate much. And even from my end  as a client, to some of the advertising agencies, when you go to them, they show you a set of visuals and they just like pick and choose. And sometimes I feel confused. I've seen that in one of my competitors campaigns, how come you are showing me that? At least get me fresh visuals. That would make me think differently about my product. But again, this is in a way lazy marketing. Just so we have a set of images and then just like we can plug it into any campaign.I think if you reach a point when you can just like, remove the name of a brand and put another, and you don't feel a difference, then you just like have totally removed the identity of a brand. And I'm seeing that everywhere.

(08:21) Karim Fahmy 

Yeah. Because you're playing a different ball game now. You're basically playing by a totally different set of rules. I mean you were talking about a time when there was a lot of behind the scenes brand building happening, you know, a lot of digging into insights, a lot digging into the type of visuals that are being used that drive a certain brand equity and building that brand equity. So there was a whole bunch of parameters and ground rules that were being employed at the time. But now with digital being king, you're basically playing a frequency game and a messaging game, depending on where you are in a funnel. So consumers are flooded. At this point in time, their life is a funnel. Where are you in the funnel? And depending on where are you in the funnel, we will bombard you with messages. So it's basically a frequency game. And just in terms of pure psychology, there is a threshold that in terms of frequency that once you know, bypass that number of times that you bombarded somebody with a certain message. You're really in a very gray area of literally brainwashing them into buying a product. So it's totally different, and I know this will sound blasphemous in certain circles and might have some people gasp, but if you look at subliminal advertising and the whole study of subliminal advertising back in the sixties and seventies, it was deemed on unethical for a reason because basically programming somebody's brain into purchasing something or to think in a certain way by mind-mapping people's brains and by targeting them. You know, infinitely across the day across different touch points. You're really operating in a very gray area and that's why every year you have Congress talking about stuff with privacy that you have in the EU. Now they have the digital services act. So there are people that are aware of you and you have all the different pieces of research that are coming out about social media and the effects of social media on psychology, etc So, you know, there is a dark side. To what we're talking about.

(10:30) Radwa Hassan 
Yeah, I know that it's going to take a few years down the line for people to really act seriously or to raise the level of awareness on that topic for someone to take action for even if we're talking about gen Z and gen alphas and you see governments or schools or anyone taking serious action. I think it's going to take time just as we were speaking before about maybe the food industry and how people now have a much better level of awareness about what healthy food is, and everybody's talking about health. So I still have a few years to go or maybe more to go, but  there was no way out really, as I see. And, as we have talked about and how do you see the influence and the impact of influencer marketing and creating that state of lazy marketing.

(11:14) Karim Fahmy
Yeah, I'm not the biggest fan of influencer marketing. Yeah. I'm not the biggest fan. Some people would say, yeah, but it works. And that's exactly the problem because something works does it mean that it is good, because A is infuencers push any product that you pay them enough to basically promote to a brand, really brands that jump on the influencer marketing bandwagon without having really invested properly. You know, brand-building and having a solid consumer brace, solid brand equity, something that the brand stands for really  stands on very flimsy ground because you might sell a lot, but you know, the same people that have bought your brand might tomorrow move on to something else just with the next fad, because ultimately it's just. You are a fad. If you're relying on somebody to basically just to basically just promote you. And at the same time, I would say that you're also hostage to the influencer because they can talk good about you or they could talk bad about you. 

(12:28) Radwa Hassan
Or when you end the contract, or, I mean, whenever the agreement is done, they could just like bad mouth, no regulations whatsoever.There it's more of an individual approach.

(12:38) Karim Fahmy
Sure, I mean, again let's look at advertising, everything that we're talking about at the root has always existed. So influencer marketing, if you look at traditional media back in the day and all of that, You still had those handsome models and these pretty women in our ads and the doctor or the actor in a fake doctor's outfit telling you that this toothpaste is the best you've always had it in some way, shape or form. Okay. But, but the brand was at the core, it was the brand. That was the star. Nowadays, it's the influencer, who is the star and the brand is playing second fiddle. And that's very tricky. That's a very tricky proposition. So yeah, and so I think it's lazy marketing  because you basically cut corners in terms of brand building and building your brand equity,  building a loyal consumer base.And yeah, you just want to get to the bottom line, which is ultimately what everybody's trying to do, which is let's just see the ROI. Let's just see the bottom line.

(13:42) Radwa Hassan 
Certainly. And that brings me also to the topic that we picked on, which is the EU regulations of the digital services act and how that impact any content that we're consuming here. Maybe through European brands or on different platforms. How do you see this? Come our way in this region or even being practiced in the Americas. And if they're gonna leverage such regulation.

(14:10) Karim Fahmy 
I'm based in New York and every year almost every year we have Congress try and they bring mark Zuckerberg in and they start to question him and they get no where. Okay. So, I mean, there are voices that don't want to get somewhere, you know, and there are very strong lobbies as well. So it's that what I mean. It's a very tricky proposition. The EU have gotten away with something that is very hard to get away with that to hold them accountable for content on their platforms are very tricky because social media platforms have been playing in this gray area where they say, we are not a publisher. They say, we are not a publisher. We don't publish this. So we have nothing to do with this content, but the EU is holding them accountable for whatever is on their platforms. So that's a very tricky proposition. Will I see it adopted in the middle east or in the region? I don't really think so because this is again this is an initiative that has to be taken seriously from the very higher ups and in our regions were used to dealing with matters in a different way, which is simply blocking them and just banning things or blocking things and stuff like that. And so we're used to dealing with things in a slightly different manner.

(15:50) Radwa Hassan  
So for our listeners interest, if you can give an idea of what the digital services act is and really how it works and what the EU is trying to control and how it's going to impact the consumers and also impact the big techies.

(16:13) Karim Fahmy  
Basically in a nutshell the DSA is a piece of legislation that requires big tech companies to get rid of illegal content on their platforms. So basically whatever is illegal out of social media in the public domain is also illegal on their platforms. So, they can no longer get away with stuff like hate, hate speech or incitement, etc. Platforms  have always claimed that we're going to do more to take down certain content or certain videos, and they've always claimed to be doing their best, which is technically not true because again everybody's looking for engagement while content brands are looking for engagement with content and these platforms are looking for people to engage with content. And unfortunately, due to human nature they have found that there's a lot of engagement for somewhat negative content or content that triggers people to argue or fight with each other  amongst each other on platforms, controversial points of views, etc things that might be deemed under the digital services act to be illegal or hate speech. So. It has never really been in their best benefit, the big tech companies take down the content because it actually plays in their favor. It keeps people online longer. It keeps people engaged longer. The likes, the shares etc. So there's kind of a conflict of interest between taking down content that really works, quote on quote, and being ethical in terms of well, this can be considered as hate speech or this can be considered as illegal, but what the EU has done is tell them, well kind of, we don't care. If it's illegal in the public domain, then it's illegal on your platforms. And it's your responsibility to take it down, not wait for people to report content and moderate it to see.Well, maybe it does fall within our guidelines or maybe it doesn't fall with it. It becomes a very subjective issue here. And so that's kind of the loophole in the gray area that they've been getting away with for a long time which is quite tricky.

(18:55) Radwa Hassan   
Very tricky. Also the part that I really liked about the law, including measures, compelling tech joins to be more transparent about the algorithms and how they use them to recommend content to the users. This is really important because we're now all trapped in this big, massive algorithm black hole that according to your age, location, the type of content that's being pushed to you is annoying. Really? On some platforms you keep on seeing the same content, because basically that's what the algorithms think that you need to see at this point in time. That's it take this?

(19:32) Karim Fahmy 
Absolutely. But again there are things that sound good on paper and things that cannot realistically be like, okay, if they want more transparency in terms of the algorithm, what if they changed the algorithm next month? Our day now legally obliged to inform the EU every time they make a slight change in their algorithm. You know, we changed it next month. What, if they tell you, okay, well, this is what it looks like now. And then next week they decide to change it. How many times has Facebook or Instagram or TiK Tok changed the way that your homepage looks like, and the type of content on your homepage has changed because they've changed the algorithm and they may or may not have informed you in like a 50 page disclaimer that you're never going to read. So it's these kind of things and let's be realistic here. I think it's a win in terms of the EU and what they've done, but let's see how far we'll go. And how far will these big tech companies end up complying?Because again we're talking dollars and cents here. Elon Musk just bought Twitter. Yeah and he says he is going to make it even more profitable. So there's a lot more potential there now what that means nobody knows.

(20:51) Radwa Hassan  
We are all here to wait and see and watch, get our popcorn and see how this is going to really change.

 

(20:59) Karim Fahmy 
So the end game is going to be very different. All the time. It is because it's just an algorithm, a small change here, and a small change there that changes everything for you.

(21:10) Radwa Hassan 
Of course and for the money that they're making. But I think a good penalty here is what the EU is imposing a 6% of their annual revenue, which is like really big, big money. So the EU is a big market.Yeah true. So a big if true and a lot of it can be played around with technology, but anyway, I think this is in the favor of the EU trying to put some regulations and moderate that. So my other question here is now you are in the consumer seat for so many of the products that you use, I mean, how would you protect yourselves or as a consumer protect ourselves? Do we have even a chance from that digital fatigue and the overselling?

 (21:53) Karim Fahmy   
I know before we record, we wanted to leave this on a positive note, I don't want to be the bringer of doom here, but I think there's very little as a consumer you can do here. If you think of the matrix you are in the matrix. Okay. So yeah I mean of course you can say, okay, well, there is a growing trend of people now wanting to purchase analog phones so they can disconnect.   And you've got all these attempts by telling you've been using your phone for X number of hours. So maybe take a break and all this stuff, but practically you are in the matrix. So if you meet somebody and they say, well, I'm not on social media and I don't have a smartphone, you think, wow, man, that guy's weird. Or that guy is quite strange even through social through Peer pressure and just by virtue of connectivity it's quite hard because this is your reality today. It's like saying let's take out email from the equation. It's quite hard. That's why I feel that even though I know lots of people are not friends of legislation. I  think there has to be some wise, ethical, smart, tech and people on the psychology front who see the big picture who are not motivated by the bottom line, not motivated by money, not motivated by business, just motivated by what does this technology mean for people. And is having more tech along the lines of what we're dealing with now, having a positive impact or a negative impact. I give you the example of cigarettes and there was a time when cigarettes were being in the fifties, you would see ads as nine out of 10 pregnant women recommend smoking X or nine out of 10 doctors recommend smoking Y and then with time these ads got filtered out and then you had the warning labels, and then you still had advertising out in magazines and print. Ultimately you reached a point where through legislation through law. You know, like cigarette companies are really very limited in terms of what they can do. Similarly, there has to be some sort of parameters to which these platforms can operate. There has to be parameters in terms of the number of times you are bombarded by advertising. Through simple research,if you see something, if you see an ad almost 20, 20 times, there's a very high chance of you purchasing. I'm not saying that's a rule of thumb, but there are some pieces of research that have been mentioned and it's not a purchase that you've done willingly. It's just that you've been so coerced into purchasing just by pure bombardment across the funnel, you know, where you are in the funnel, different messaging. So I think that there has to be a limit in terms of what your subjected to because I would say that falls into the realm of subliminal marketing, and  falls into this realm of being, is it ethical or unethical? So I think that this has to come from these very smart people to sit down and say, well, is this really good for humanity as a whole in terms of what we're doing and where we are going.

(25:33) Radwa Hassan
Absolutely. Yes, I totally agree. And that brings me to our last point, which is about recommendations or tips, or really any chance for marketeers to go back to the same, or at least a good level of creativity and embracing different tools and techniques to bring the customer back to us, not just through the funnel, but to have a different space than just digital.

(26:06) Karim Fahmy  
I see a couple of long haired people with analog phones who are disconnected of social media who started a small boutique agency and say, well, listen the world doesn't start and end by banner ads and search but let's just think back and think about brand building and think about consumers and think about ethical marketing and think about finessing a consumer, seducing a consumer into buying a product and not forcing or brainwashing a consumer to buy a product. I would say people need to have a different mind, a different mindset when they approach consumers and when they approach brands  just to keep it ethical, just to keep it interesting, just to keep it fun yeah, I mean  that's my 2 cents and I'm hiring. If anybody's interested in.

(26:54) Radwa Hassan  
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm going to get an analog phone in that case to be completely disconnected. Yeah and I really liked the examples that you've mentioned in our previous discussion about the ads, the mini Cooper ad a really interesting and brings us back to a time when you would just like, look into an ad and say, oh, wow. How did anyone come up with that? It's not using technology. It's just like human brain. Someone would come up with a brilliant visual and an ad that would keep you just like in a sate of oh wow!

(27:28) Karim Fahmy  
Yeah. I mean I don't know what  the mini Cooper marketing and media plan looks like now, but I remember an ad, like you asked me what was the last memorable ad I saw and I honesty don't you remember anything? And I'm a person that is quite aware of my surroundings and of ads and quite critical. But I remember an ad I saw 10 years ago, a mini Cooper ad edit was I think it was a two second ad. And  it was an ad that ran in Europe. I don't remember where and the ads simply said fits anywhere and It was just a visual of the car and fits anywhere. And this two second ad, it would run in between ads. So you've had a 30 second ad, a 30 second ad. And just before the second ad would run, you would just get this ad that says mini Cooper fits anywhere. And of course,  just to explain, well, it's a two second ad because mini Coopers are small. So it's a play on the brand equity. Being small and it's memorable as hell. And it's quite effective and it is efficient because you're not paying a lot of money for a two second ad versus a 32 second ad of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know here, we're a bunch of guys that said  we're not going to do a 32 second ad  forget about all the different stuff that you want to talk about and all the blah, and all the dogmatic ads that you see with all these car manufacturers, you know, what's the most important thing in their car. What should corporate equity? It's cute. It's small. It fits anywhere. You know, so this is an example of something that's fun that doesn't annoy the hell out of you, you see it, you actually go and tell your friends, Hey man, did you, did you see that? And you could play many different versions of it. So this is, this is what I like.This is the industry I kind of miss. So yeah.

(29:09) Radwa Hassan  
Yeah, absolutely. And, and you know what, even as a client, this is one of the things that I brief my agency I'm working with creativity. Really sometimes doesn't cost much. It just like cost to sitting and thinking about the brand equity of the briefing. And how do you want to impress people with a very nice visual that really looks innovative, but now many people look at or ad agencies and even marketeers believe If it doesn't go viral, It's not successful.

(29:42) Karim Fahmy  
It doesn't mean that this doesn't go viral. I'm telling you, I'm mentioning an ad. I've seen 10 years ago. So this must have been viral. I used to present to clients. And I would use this as an example in my presence. It has gone viral. And it doesn't mean that you have to go traditional or you have to go digital I always say that when somebody tells me oh we are a digital first client, or we are a digital first agency, I always tell them, I don't know what that means. What do you mean? You're a digital first? What if your consumer is not digitally savy? Are you going to be like, we only deal with consumers that are digital. It means nothing to me, honestly, I always like raise an eyebrow when somebody tells me I'm digital first . What does it mean? What I understand is that you have a whole different set of touch points and you have some really great, cool tech out there. To me, that's an opportunity where you can create these hybrid touch points. Okay. Now, how do you take this and merge it with that? And you create this new touch point that still  leverages the best in tech that's out there that still adds fun and flare and creativity and respect. To aid the consumer and to the business and to the industry that you're operating. And don't just do these creative ads that you run once just to enter it in your Canline award. And  you know, operate as a business, have that as your daily life,  have that as your daily business, have that as the work that you produce on and off for your clients so yeah these are my 2 cents.

(31:16) Radwa Hassan 
That's more than 2 cents, but yeah. Thank you so much, Karim, really a great episode can't thank you enough for all the insights and the engaging discussion. I look forward to another one where we can still dig deeper into the ad industry. So, well, thank you for that one and thanks to all our listeners and stay tuned for more. Thank you.

(31:40) Karim Fahmy  
Thank you very much.